Saturday, February 7, 2009

Nizar sacked himself

This little clause below is what PKR quotes as the defining legal rampart from which they want to hurl accusations and abuses that the Sultan has overstepped his boundary.

"If the MB ceases to command the confidence of the majority of the members of the Legislative Assembly, then, unless at his request His Royal Highness dissolves the Legislative Assembly, he shall tender the resignation of the Executive Council."
Let us look at this sentence very carefully, first we will remove the bit between commas and see what we get

"If the MB ceases to command the confidence of the majority of the members of the Legislative Assembly he shall tender the resignation of the Executive Council."

Once the MB ceases to command majority, he is to tender his resignation.
Did he lose command of the majority? If he did not why on earth would he go and ask the Sultan for a dissolution.

The resignation here is for the whole executive council or Exco.

Here is where the Sultan's role comes in;

Once Nizar has come forward with request for dissolution, he has effectively put the Sultan on notice that he has lost command of the majority.

Remember this; at no point has anyone come up to say that he has lost command of the majority, all we had notice that BN was goign to hold a Press conference to announce that Bota has returned to the fold and three ADUNs have resigned from PKR and DAP to become independent.

If he did not ask for dissolution then it woudl be a different story, since there would still be room to wriggle and leaves little or no opening for BN to come in and make a claim of majority.

If Nizar HAD NOT asked for dissolution, it would be hard for the Sultan to entertain BN's request, at the most he may suggest that they should hold an emergency session to see who's got the bigger bat.

NIZAR's first course of action should have been to ask for an emergency session to sort it out like politicians but I guess he figured he woudl lose in an emergency session so he jumped the gun and asked for dissolution, If you follow the logic train, this route would also bring you to the conclusion that Nizar did not command the majority

But since Nizar has put the Sultan on notice that he no longer commands majority when he asked for a dissolution, there is every reason for the Sultan to receive BN's proposal for a new Government.

Once he has received assurance from all 28 Umno reps and three independent tha they are indeed in support fo the single largest party in the state assembly, the Sultan can now decide whether he should accept Nizar's request for dissolution.

All he did was deny that request for dissolution (this is the bit between the comma.

then, unless at his request His Royal Highness dissolves the Legislative Assembly
When the Sultan refused to entertain Nizar's request for dissolution, by virtue of the bits after the comma AND without any further action from the Sultan, Nizar is required to tender his resignation, failign which the seat becomes automatically vacant.

In effect Nizar sacked himself by asking for a dissolution of the state legislative, in fact he announced the dissolution even before getting consent from the Sultan ( which is, by the way, a departure from the rule ( ultra vires kata orang loyar - salah dari segi undang undang, melangaku had kuasa). but never mind that little anomaly, by annoucning the dissolution, Nizar told the world that he no logner commands majority.

So you see Nizar really did sack himself and he did publicly, without asking the Sultan, who had fought hard for his post to receive and accept his resignation by agreeing to a dissolution.

After the MB, requested for dissolution and the sultan declined, the MB's office automatically becomes vacant, (read the Sultan's office statement again for he articulated this legal point very clearly and at no time did he say that he sacked Nizar, it simply stated the cause and effect)

Faced with a vacant chair of the state executive, the Sultan has to move quickly to prevent a power vacuum.

At this point what the Pakatan people should have done is gone to present their case to the Sultan, that they still have command of over the legislative council, though it may be a minority Government...

Oh they may have vaguely mentioned it to us but never made this representation to the Sultan you see...

So, faced with only one representation from BN for forming a new Government despite Nizar coming for a second time before the Sultan, (Nizar went again to plead for dissolution - thus providing double confirmation that he has no majority to offer to the Sultan) he had no choice but to accept the BN's proposal.

What happened here is an example of a lack of understanding of how the law works,

If you tell the Sultan that you no longer command majority, by asking for dissolution then you have basically shot yourself in the foot

which is surprising because I am sure that Pakatan has an army of lawyers, Karpal is famous , I was told Kit Siang is legally qualified and many others....

In Conclusion, Nizar sacked himself publicly first then told the Sultan he wanted dissolution which effectively means he has lost comand of the majority, which means if the sultan does not agree to dissolution his seat becoems automatically vacant (sultan did not sack him), if the Sultan agreed to dissolution - it would also mean that the MB has lost his seat so you must be careful with request for dissolution because it is a very dangerous option.


Anwar tried this trick on Pak Lah on Sept 16 but Pak Lah did not fall for it, just sat it out until next session and nothing happened...

Stop blaming the Sultan for making the choice that he did, he is well within the law and a massive statewide election is an unnecessary distraction and expense at this point and a BN Government will likely get more support from the Federal Government, crucial during times of recession. He simply took the option that would better serve the people.

41 comments:

vinnan said...

You cannot interpret section16(6) without the commas. They are there for a reason. The commas are used so as to treat the section as a whole and not in bits and pieces. If it was supposed to be in bits and pieces then there may be a section16(6) and a section section 16(7). You are either stupid enough to think taht sucha simplistic stunt will work on the Malaysian people or your English is so bad you do not understand hoe a comma works. I thnk it is both.

Shamsul Yunos said...

Vinan, no one is asking for the provision to be considered separately, removing the comma helps to clarify the main point of the provision, while the bits in the coma are provisos for the provision

All I am demonstrating here is that once there is no majority, the MB automatically loses his office, the proviso comes in givign the sultan option, he can dissolve the state assembly if the MB asks for it but MB worked it out backwards... even without any motion of no confidence he jumped the gun and asked for dissolution

Anwar tried this trick on Pak Lah on Spet 16 but Pak lah did not fal for it, just sat it out until next session and nothing happened...

Ask yourself why Nizar did nto simply wait it out? Sultan woudl nto ask for emergency session without advice or request from MB...

All I am saying is that Pakatan needs to learn the finer points of the law and not lose their cool liek this... they are easy prey to Umno man....

Anonymous said...

Hello,I wonder if you realise you've just misinterpret the phrases in the that paragraph.
"If the MB ceases to command the majority of the members of the Legislative Assembly, then, unless at his request His Royal Highness dissolves the Legislative Assembly,he shall tender the resignation of the Executive Council."

The key operating word here is "unless" which means " if the MB does not request His Royal Highness to dissolve the Legislative Assembly in the event he ceases to command majority support from the Legislative Assembly, then he has to tender the resignation of the whole group of lawmakers.

Therefore, within the context of the crisis in Perak what MB Nizar did was right. He had ask for a dissolution of the Legislative Assembly and therefore they do not need to resign.

Go ask your ex-English teacher this and I'm sure he or she would have explained this grammar point to you.

English Teacher from Perak

Shamsul Yunos said...

Anon 9:45,
you read it again,
once he commands majority he has to tender his resignation (this is why I removed the bits in the comma first so you get the gist of the message and not confuse the proviso)

Now to the bits in the comma;

he does not have to tender his resignation if the sultan dissolves the state legislative(unless at his request His Royal Highness dissolves the Legislative Assembly)

why does he not have to tender his resignation if the Sultan dissolves the Dewan Undangan Negeri?

Because everyone would have lost their seat and the MB's seat becomes vacant, that is the active part for the Sultan, which he did not do

his demand for dissolution, in my contention, is proof that he has lost command of the majority and therefore has to tender his resignation, if he does not do so, the seat is automatically vacated...

Shamsul Yunos said...

I meant to say when he loses command of the majority, in the first sentence

Dhahran Sea said...

Salam Shamsul,
Lets not get ourselves lost in the legal gobbledygook... leave it to the loyar lah... the fact of the matter is this: 4 ekor katak lompat and akibatnya the voice of the people of Perak in GE12 was reversed by the "unwise" act of the Sultan. An "injustice" has been done, so the right to restore the justice has to be returned to the people of Perak. How to do this? By having another state election - this is the FUNDAMENTAL right of the rakyat - it is NOT so much about the legality of the matter or the right of the Sultan, nor UMNO/BN and NOT even PKR/PR! Btw, tak malu ke UMNO/BN "menang" by "political hijacking"? Lagi pun those two yang ada kes mahkamah are really SCUMS of the earth! Dah lah buat busuk dalam PKR, yang Najib pi ambik bangkai tu buat apa? Tak menjijikkan ke? Those MPs yang melompat, irrespective of from BN or PR are really TRAITORS to the people and they should be SHOT! The 1st one is none other than Ibrahim Ali, Agong of all the frogs!

Anonymous said...

Just to add... : There is the Interpretation Act which applies to all Acts..which says that anyone who has the power to appoint is also deemed to have the power to dismiss. Altho that power to dismiss was not actually used by the Sultan.Sultan did not dismiss Nizar as wrongly stated by the press. Please read what was the palace's statement. As for you Shamsol, thumbs up.. ! Your article 'tepat'.

Azad said...

well said bro.

vinnan said...

Your English truly sucks. Firstly nowhere in the passage does it mention as to what precisely constitutes the MB losing the support of the majority. There is also nothing in the passage saying what the Sultan can choose to do or not to do. Do you get it now. The section has everything to do with what the MB chooses to do according to how he/she sees the situation to be. He can either ask the Sultan to dissolve the Assembly or to tender his resignation. In other words the MB can resign or he can fight in an election. Nowhere does it say the Sultan can deny the request of the MB for a dissolution of the assembly. In other words it is the MB's right to go back to the people for a fresh mandate. The Sultan has denied Nizar this right and therefore he ha s also prevented democracy from working in Perak Moreover you are still wrong in removing the commas in interpreting Section 16 (6). This violation of the English grammar cannot stand. Please consult your English teacher for your own sake.

Kit Siang said...

Melayu for Islamic Law

Mat Cendana said...

This is the most interesting and intriguing legal-related Post that I've read so far. Easy to understand too. You might be on to something here - the attempts to belittle your English are a sure sign that some people are a bit worried. Jangae maroh dae, adek-kakok... I'm a Kelantanese; poor English too:-)

Ladyhawke said...

What's the confusion? Let me simplify it even further. Like dis: If MB has no majority, he has to resign, UNLESS, HRH dissolves the assembly. If HRH does not, the MB still has to resign because he has no majority! DHUHHH!

By the way, MB can request, and guess what? HRH can R-E-F-U-S-E !

cilacap said...

brother noob yunos. Do you have any idea how does datuk Seri Nizar can lose the majority confidence? by having a no confidence vote in the state assembly! now, the issue is...there IS NO VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE against him in the state assembly. All he is requesting is.. dissolve the state assembly.. or move a no confidence motion against him in the state assembly. brother, i think you better quit blogging. you are a serious threat to the nation. ISA is coming for you. bye bye

pinksky82 said...

I like they way you explained it. Now it all make sense to me... yeah you're definitely right that he did sacked himself...

Nizar oh nizar,what an idiot.. LOL!

Anonymous said...

I still remember the person who hold Keris and said, 'Kill Chinese', and was not being detained during operasi Lalang, you know who?

I still remember,Atlantuya....you remember?

Oh...forget, A King is not subjected to Court of Law even if the commit criminal offense...kekeke...that's why they can not be SAMAN or CHallange...if not, UMNO will have rally with banner on the street!

Shamsul Yunos said...

Vinnan

wanna read the bits between teh comma again

then, unless at his request His Royal Highness dissolves the Legislative Assembly

see this is why I removed it first, because it confuses a lot of people

by using the word unless, it means that the Sultan can choose whether to dissolve or not - he is required to make a judgment call here adn he did, its just that you don't like it

Shamsul Yunos said...

Cilacap,
maybe you want to read your fellow angry friend's comment Vinan who said that the section does not make clear how one is to determine whether the MB has lost his majority..

I say the fact that he asked for dissolution is one way to prove that he has lost the command of the majority

Shamsul Yunos said...

Dhahran Sea

Let me get this correctly, you mean to say that the action of the Sultan is Legal but it's just that you and other Pakatan fanboys don't like it right?

because, lets face it, every time you guys throw the word ethical, it is just a way to justify what you do and run down BN

I will give you the Sept 16 move, the bota state assemblyman jump....

remember when it was ethical to try and force a change of Government at a nationwide level? jsut because you didn't succeed does not change the ethics OK...

both were said to be ethical triumphs (except for the fact that they are abject failures - your saudara Anwar is all talk I'm afraid and thsese street demos are his preferred way of doing things)

Shamsul Yunos said...

Dhahran, and anothing that you brought up that really soudn like sour grapes

the two PKR DUN who turned independent..

just last week you guys were trying to say that they were innocent but set-up by Umno adn you expect the charge to be lifted when they have a change of heart

now you say they are dirty scumbags who is makign PKR rotten,

well you have to decide which is which

if you say they have been rotten always,,then it begs this question..


why not sack them and disqualify them from their seats when you found out months ago and send those seats back for by-election?

You see your sour grapes know no bounds

take it easy man, take off those blinkers

at least people who support BN/Umno we know we have flaws and we are trying to fix them

you guys think you are all saints... that's the problem

Anonymous said...

vinnan and the rest of the other keling and org cina marah sgt sbb negara ni diperintah oleh sultan melayu betul tak vinnan?Kesimpulannya,sampai hari kiamat pun jgn mimpi lah korang nak perintah malaysia..haa..haa..haa..haa..haa.Kalau tak puas hati,boleh bungkus brg korang dan deport balik motherland india.Sama ngan korang cina..boleh balik naik tongkang.

Anonymous said...

Hello kawan,
I read in another comment, that Ahmad Ismail also comes from India.

Inikah sahaja yang BN boleh buat. Di antara ribuan orang, yang nampak hanyalah dua orang pendatang tanpa izin. Tetapi di kalangan UMNO sememangnya banyak pendatang. **** Hamid Allblur dari Yemen. Ah Mad Ismail dari India. Semuanya berebut-rebut mendakwa diri sebagai bumiputera untuk menikmati kebaikan NEP dan dasar perkauman UMNO. Mungkin sebab inilah orang UMNO hanya tahu nampak pendatang sahaja.

Dhahran Sea said...

Salam Shamsul,
Firstly, I'm still a registered UMNO member since 1985 (belum keluar parti walau pun rasa nak keluar jugak bila TDM keluar). Secondly, and by default I'm NOT a PKR/PR member. Thirdly, I DIDN'T vote in GE12 for technical reason (even IF I got the chance I WOULD NOT HAVE VOTED FOR PAK LAH, SIL&CO.!). Shamsul, I believe "justice/truth/fairness" SHOULD NOT be bounded by party politics. I'm as sick to the core with BN/UMNO MPs yang melompat as with MPs from other parties yang melompat. What I'm trying to say is this: dengan keadaan UMNO/BN yang tenat sekarang ni, dengan pemimpin2 UMNO/BN yang telah hilang maruah dan kepercayaan ramai rakyat, kenapa ambik jalan mudah & tak bermaruah dengan menerima MP yang berpaling tadah & yang hanya mementingkan diri sendiri? "Kemenangan" BN/UMNO di Perak dengan cara ini tak akan dapat bertahan lama. Lagi rakyat benci! Najib & Pak Lah dah "desperate" sangat ke? Selalunya bila buat benda2 desperate ni, nanti backfire! Bab Sultan & legal matters tu 2ndary pada pandangan saya. Dengan keadaan sekarang ni Sultan sepatutnya return the right to decide to the rakyat... have another state election. Bila dia buat macam ni, easily separuh dari rakyat Perak tak puas hati, and they are rightly so... to me the "wise" thing for Sultan to do then was to agree to dissolve the state assembly and let the rakyat decide again. Meanwhile, kena buat undang2 yang melompat kena buang negeri/negara... ini pandangan saya sendirian berhad lah...sekian & salam.

Shamsul Yunos said...

Anon11:09

Malay is an inclusive race, if you are a a Muslim and speak the language and adopt the culture you are a Malay, We are the first true melting pot race

Shamsul Yunos said...

Dhahran Sea
this is what you said

I believe "justice/truth/fairness" SHOULD NOT be bounded by party politics.

Truth and justice is never bound by party politics, all I put here is a legal argument because I cannot stand people blaming the sultan when their plans go pear-shaped

I am just pointing out to you that PKR fanboys that you twist and turn

The Ombudsman said...

Good one, bro.
Lawyers are a confused lot.
That is why they always argue in court, they are not very sure of themselves and need to rely on either a judge or jury to tell whether they are right or wrong.

Mat Cendana said...

@LadyHawke
Excellent! Thank You for distilling it even further - even my non-legalese mind can now understand it.

But wait for the complaints - some people won't like it and will deride and belittle what you had written as "non-lawyer", "simpleton" (and conveniently not providing anything to refute it) ... They want it to be *complicated*... baru ada enough leeway to putar-belit.

BTW it's interesting to note some of these comments that don't rebut what Shamsul Yunos has written here. Instead, they are just ad hominem, personal attacks and bringing up things immaterial and irrelevant to the issues of this post.

P.S - Folks, believe it or not, I'm actually a PAS supporter. Yup, that's right - since 1983. And I loathe Umno. But with this one - especially in people acting biadap and kurang ajar to the Sultan - I'm siding with whoever will take them on.

cilacap said...

Shamsul Yunos said...
Cilacap,
maybe you ......

I say the fact that he asked for dissolution is one way to prove that he has lost the command of the majority
-------

so by this, you mean that when pak lah requested for the parliment to be dissolved earlier for the 12GE... pak lah lost the confidence of the parliment also??

this is a government..and there is a Protocol to be followed. not by feel.

Shamsul Yunos said...

Cilacap aah...

If at teh end of a term it is called seeking for a fresh mandate,

he is required by law to give back the house to the people to decide, he can call it earlier,

tak tau lah kalau pakatan punya time you guys will refuse to disslove because you think it means not ahving majority support

difference with now, in case it's still hazy to you

the Government is less than a year old so who in their right mind would ask for a dissolution,

this usually happens when there is a hung parliament/assembly and the head of Government thinks that going to the polls will help restore his majority which means that when they call for dissolution they have lost command of the majority of members

Anonymous said...

hello bro shamsul,

they said the first to be dumped in hell will be lawyers, second was accountants which use to be first but all that changed when risks and good governance were introduced in the banking sector.

wow, today in the PC, a benggali tua said he is not afraid of all police reports against him and warned those who made the reports not to play around with him (jangan main-main* sama saya!)*sebab B.A.B.I sudah main dia belakang.

LOL, with your layman approach in interpreting the clause, itu benggali tua (dulu kici kici jaga lembu) susah mau cari makan lah.

anyway, just my thinking lah, this whole legal episode should be left to the court to decide.

i don't know if there is any special immunity to JPeace holders? if there is, what's more of Sultan and former Lord President.

that benggali tua should start eating back all his bloody words before it become cancerous to him. i dread to see him a goner on a wheelie dillie before his final departure to kamunting.

c said...

bro yunos, pak lah called for an early election also..not at the end of the tenure..

Shamsul Yunos said...

C,

everyone knew that he did it to get a fresh mandate, to reconfirm his earlier mandate, although the way PKR people were talking , it sure did sound like he had lost majority support didn't he....

anyway, at that time no one came up to say that they have denied Pak Lah his majority

so by that one assumes that he was just seeking fresh mandate

Shamsul Yunos said...

c,

another thing

Perak had paper thin majority and faced defection

Pak Lah had the biggest majority BN ever enjoyed in teh history of BN... I think there is a huge difference there

the thing is, you have to apply logic to make thinking work and if you apply logic to your train of thought, it would have derailed before you conclude that Pak Lah had lost command of the majority.. NO?

Anonymous said...

I remember you as a guy who used to take photographs at the UMNO function in PWTC. Not a very good dresser, a bit on the sloppy side.And now you are commenting on Law, and legalities. click clickclick. Tolongla, bruder, hang pi baca apa kata Tun Mahathir dulu... pasal Nizar dan dewan perundangan. Hang ni nampak bodoh la, sepadan dgn muka. Jangan marah beb, dulu kena gasak dgn Dato Ahmad di NSTP, merajuk pula...masa tu dimana kepakaran demo???? biasala, hang ni pun nak cari makan... dari reporter kereta,jadi kameraman, skg ni cyber troper....

Anonymous said...

Have you heard of the concept of a Minority Government?

Asking for a dissolution is not the same as stating that PR have lost majority. Asking for a dissolution, is becoz the party concerned wants to go back to the "RAKYAT" and ask the RAKYAT for a new mandate.

Malaysians are not used to the above concepts becoz Parlimentary democracy has been watered down and marginalized in Malaysia.

BS

Shamsul Yunos said...

BS I mentioned the possibility of pleading a minority Government but Nizar did not do that, he kept insisting on dissolution and with that, I am arguing, that it is tantamount to his admission of losing majority support

you don't ahve to agree with me,

this is one point of view and apparently this is probably/likely the same point of view that the Sultan took that is why the statement from his office says that the post of menteri besar becomes vacant automatically - i.e without any action from the Sultan

the 'unless' bit simply says that a resignation letter is unnecessary if there is a dissolution,

without dissolution a resignation letter is preferable,

otherwise the office becomes vacant automatically

Milky Tea said...

I think the most important issue raised in these comments is this, dat shamsul dress sloppy. He doesnt dress sloppy, since he doesnt dress at all. He sorta jumps into the bundle of washed laundry and comes up with whatever is attached to him. hehehehe.

Anonymous said...

Atok, hang cakap belit2. Aku nak tengok hang cakap belit kat padang Mahsyar esok macamana. Brader, rezeki tangan Tuhan, bukan Najib.

Aspiring Sufi

Shamsul Yunos said...

Aspiring sufi,

its a legal opinion, don't get yourself in a knot

BTW My conscience is clear

Pak Nik said...

With due respect En Shamsul your interpretation of the whole scenario may be flawed.

Under the Constitution the MB may seek consent of the Sultan to dissolve the assembly for reasons other than not commanding the confidence of the assembly.

In other words, Nizar could seek consent for dissolution even if he had the confidence of the majority of assembly.

In his Royal statement the Sultan clarified that he used his discretion under the constitution to reject consent for dissolution of the assembly, instead Tuanku applied 16(6).

Even by using your deduction of removing the wordings in between the comas, to determine if the MB ceases to command the confidence of the majority of the assembly is by a vote of no confidence in the assembly itself and not by "interviewing" the party with the bigger numbers.

If there had been a vote of no confidence in the assembly against Nizar and he lost...only then he and exco MUST resign ..unless the Sultan dissolves the assembly on his request.

regards

Arkane said...

Actually, PR can't argue for a minority government. Pakatan Rakyat is not a registered entity. Therefore Pakatan Rakyat is not the party with the biggest majority in Perak. The party with the biggest majority is UMNO, far ahead of the DAP.

But heck, Pakatan "Rakyat" lah katakan. Semua benda dia buat rakyat "sokong belaka" (kononnya). Kalau dia buat, itu demokrasi. Kalau dia kena, itu tak adil. Ini undang-undang masa aku jaman tadika ni.

Arkane said...

PS,
samalah jugak: kalau orang komen against PKR aje, maknanya pro-UMNO. Dulu dia suruh orang tegur bila UMNO buat salah, sekarang dia buat salah orang tegur oohhhhh tak boleh! Apa punya bengap dalam kepala yang pikir logik macam ni.

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